Religion.

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Post by isbird100 on Sun Aug 09, 2009 6:10 pm

really i think luck and fate are gods way of seeing of we react to things, i mean even if you are all powerful you can still get bored.
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Post by Yoshi16 on Sun Aug 09, 2009 7:36 pm

I think I'm gonna stay out of this one too Razz

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Post by the guffman on Sun Aug 09, 2009 7:44 pm

isbird100 wrote:really i think luck and fate are gods way of seeing of we react to things, i mean even if you are all powerful you can still get bored.

Boredom is imperfect Hunter... Rolling Eyes

If he got bored, that would mean there were things he disliked doing, which if you were all powerful and perfect, you would have have such a circumstance.
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Post by isbird100 on Sun Aug 09, 2009 10:33 pm

I believe different, and I am going to leave at that after i explain why.

God is so all powerful and "perfect" he can anything, except control us. So after existing forever, i think he made us just so he could be entertained. And i mean come on, what other explaination could there for the platapus?? But i want to end it there. So I will stop
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Post by the guffman on Sun Aug 09, 2009 10:35 pm

isbird100 wrote:I believe different, and I am going to leave at that after i explain why.

God is so all powerful and "perfect" he can anything, except control us. So after existing forever, i think he made us just so he could be entertained. And i mean come on, what other explaination could there for the platapus?? But i want to end it there. So I will stop

Lol, I have to thank you for bringing humor to a religion topic lol!
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Post by Pickle on Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:41 am

Jason wrote:
Pickle wrote:How else would he do it? Restrict things? Denying things to happen?
I dont see how there is another way

"Hey, buddy! Let's be worshiper and worshipee, but to get you to idolize and worship me, I'm going to give you a disease that makes it unbearable to live Wee !"

If your God is perfect, he would have a better way to go about things than to make innocent people suffer for his own unknown purposes...

No one is innocent, we have all broke the law
"For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" -Romans 3:23
And in order for us to worship Him fully, we have to be humble, and sometimes we have to be humbled, whether it be by disease, or death in the family, or financial struggle. Its kinda like remodeling. Sometimes you have to break down the wall in order to rebuild it better. He puts us into impossible situations so that we have no virtually no other choice but to go to Him. But, again, this is hard to understand when you arent saved.

The basis of my belief is faith. You need it to be saved. And many ppl say its too hard to have faith. but everytime you sit down on a chair, you are showing your faith in the chair. Works the same way with my belief. Many things in life take faith. Evolution is a great example. there is no empirical evidence that evolution is true, but ppl have faith that their ancestors were monkeys. the difference is, my belief cant be proven wrong, but even evolution scientists dont believe in evolution, due to the chances that it is truth. It is more probable that a god created the world than it is that evolution exists.

But im not gonna get into a big debate about evolution vs creation here on the forums. This is my belief, and i've said what is needed to be said in other topics. and like ive said before, its your choice on where you spend eternity.

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Post by the guffman on Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:33 am

Pickle wrote:He puts us into impossible situations so that we have no virtually no other choice but to go to Him. But, again, this is hard to understand when you arent saved.

Then it's not as much a choice because we can't do anything about it but go to him... Neutral

(To be relevant) I suppose that could be considered Fate right there to some people...
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Post by Pickle on Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:50 pm

When it comes to the unsaved, you have 2 choices: Go to God, or do what you want. Actually that works with the saved as well. When I said virtually no other choice, I meant, He is the best option. The other option doesnt solve anything.

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Post by the guffman on Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:18 pm

Exactly, it doesn't seem right that there's only one choice that "makes sense," and then the other involves throwing away my soul for all eternity to burn in a sea of hellfire...

I mean, if it's only down to those two options, then we all basically have to pick the first one or nothing...
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Post by Pickle on Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:22 pm

It kinda like when you get a cut. you can either clean it out, or put dirt in it. only one way helps

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Post by the guffman on Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:39 pm

Well, you could let it sit there and heal itself Wee

^is part of the metaphor
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Post by Pickle on Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:12 pm

okay... think of it like a puzzle this time, there is only 1 piece that fits into a certain place. If you try to put a piece that doesnt belong into te wrong place, it wont fit. Thats the way it is with God. We all have a place in our hearts for God. People try to fill it with either materials, knowledge, or even other people. But it will never satisfy like God does.

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Post by isbird100 on Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:01 pm

Pickle wrote:
Jason wrote:
Pickle wrote:How else would he do it? Restrict things? Denying things to happen?
I dont see how there is another way

"Hey, buddy! Let's be worshiper and worshipee, but to get you to idolize and worship me, I'm going to give you a disease that makes it unbearable to live Wee !"

If your God is perfect, he would have a better way to go about things than to make innocent people suffer for his own unknown purposes...

No one is innocent, we have all broke the law
"For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" -Romans 3:23
And in order for us to worship Him fully, we have to be humble, and sometimes we have to be humbled, whether it be by disease, or death in the family, or financial struggle. Its kinda like remodeling. Sometimes you have to break down the wall in order to rebuild it better. He puts us into impossible situations so that we have no virtually no other choice but to go to Him. But, again, this is hard to understand when you arent saved.

The basis of my belief is faith. You need it to be saved. And many ppl say its too hard to have faith. but everytime you sit down on a chair, you are showing your faith in the chair. Works the same way with my belief. Many things in life take faith. Evolution is a great example. there is no empirical evidence that evolution is true, but ppl have faith that their ancestors were monkeys. the difference is, my belief cant be proven wrong, but even evolution scientists dont believe in evolution, due to the chances that it is truth. It is more probable that a god created the world than it is that evolution exists.

But im not gonna get into a big debate about evolution vs creation here on the forums. This is my belief, and i've said what is needed to be said in other topics. and like ive said before, its your choice on where you spend eternity.

LIES We have proof of evolution, just not in humans.

50 years agothe majority of a certain species of lizards were i Br0wn and they we dieing off quickly, but a group of newborn mutated and turned a much lighter i br0wn, the same color of the sand that they live near. Now they have camoflauge(spelling?) and the majority of the population is now that color. Sorry dude, but you're wrong there.

I disagree, i don't think god is so flawed that he HAS to do things a certain way or have us do it a certain way. He is perfect so he forgives us for our shortcomings and lack of self control. there is no way god is as mean as some people believe.

Since he can't control us, the only thing he can't do, he effects the world around us do try to get us to do the right thing.


Last edited by isbird100 on Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by the guffman on Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:04 pm

See, that view actually makes sense to me
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Post by Seraph on Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:04 pm

Jason wrote:If your God is perfect, he would have a better way to go about things than to make innocent people suffer for his own unknown purposes...

If his ways are unknown, than how do you know the ways aren't perfect? God knows the past, present, and future. He knows the thoughts and motives of everyone that has ever or will ever lived.

Now Jason unless you have the same knowledge as the creator of the universe I don't think it is within your ability, or right, to determine in what way God goes about doing things.

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Post by the guffman on Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:09 pm

Seraph wrote:
Jason wrote:If your God is perfect, he would have a better way to go about things than to make innocent people suffer for his own unknown purposes...

If his ways are unknown, than how do you know the ways aren't perfect? God knows the past, present, and future. He knows the thoughts and motives of everyone that has ever or will ever lived.

Now Jason unless you have the same knowledge as the creator of the universe I don't think it is within your ability, or right, to determine in what way God goes about doing things.

Lol, the Bible talks about the concept of the universe being created? Also, if his ways are unknown, which they are because they can never be proven, then how do we know it truly is perfect? How can we, beings made to be imperfect, possibly grasp such a concept as perfection?
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Post by Seraph on Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:13 pm

isbird100 wrote:LIES We have proof of evolution, just not in humans.

50 years agothe majority of a certain species of lizards were i Br0wn and they we dieing off quickly, but a group of newborn mutated and turned a much lighter i br0wn, the same color of the sand that they live near. Now they have camoflauge(spelling?) and the majority of the population is now that color. Sorry dude, but you're wrong there.

I disagree, i don't think god is so flawed that he HAS to do things a certain way or have us do it a certain way. He is perfect so he forgives us for our shortcomings and lack of self control. there is no way god is as mean as some people believe.

Since he can't control us, the only thing he can't do, he effects the world around us do try to get us to do the right thing.

Forgive me for the double post, but there has never been proof for the Theory of Evolution. Unless time travel is invented there never will be.

Your example is the process of micro-evolution, which most people including Creationists believe in. Another term for this process is adaptation. You see those lizards you refereed to may have changed the color of their skin, but they are still lizards. In fact they are still the same species of lizards. Macro-evolution, the lie taught in public school, has never been proven because there is no way to prove it. Let me explain, macro-evolution is the process where one species becomes a completely different species. This has never happened, not once, even Darwin himself knew there were flaws in his theory and didn't completely believe in it.

To believe in Evolution and claim you believe God is all powerful is an oxymoron. To imply such Hunter you are implying God couldn't do it right the first time, that he had to make changes to creatures because his original creation was flawed and wouldn't last the test of time. This takes away from God's sovereignty and attempts to put him in a box of human understanding.

I'll say this hear but I might have to say it again in the future, if you or I, simple finite humans could understand the all-knowing, all-powerful, infinite creator of everything...he wouldn't be much of God. And if his thoughts were on the same level as you or me, would you trust him to be in that position?

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Post by isbird100 on Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:20 pm

Seraph wrote:
isbird100 wrote:LIES We have proof of evolution, just not in humans.

50 years agothe majority of a certain species of lizards were i Br0wn and they we dieing off quickly, but a group of newborn mutated and turned a much lighter i br0wn, the same color of the sand that they live near. Now they have camoflauge(spelling?) and the majority of the population is now that color. Sorry dude, but you're wrong there.

I disagree, i don't think god is so flawed that he HAS to do things a certain way or have us do it a certain way. He is perfect so he forgives us for our shortcomings and lack of self control. there is no way god is as mean as some people believe.

Since he can't control us, the only thing he can't do, he effects the world around us do try to get us to do the right thing.

Forgive me for the double post, but there has never been proof for the Theory of Evolution. Unless time travel is invented there never will be.

Your example is the process of micro-evolution, which most people including Creationists believe in. Another term for this process is adaptation. You see those lizards you refereed to may have changed the color of their skin, but they are still lizards. In fact they are still the same species of lizards. Macro-evolution, the lie taught in public school, has never been proven because there is no way to prove it. Let me explain, macro-evolution is the process where one species becomes a completely different species. This has never happened, not once, even Darwin himself knew there were flaws in his theory and didn't completely believe in it.

To believe in Evolution and claim you believe God is all powerful is an oxymoron. To imply such Hunter you are implying God couldn't do it right the first time, that he had to make changes to creatures because his original creation was flawed and wouldn't last the test of time. This takes away from God's sovereignty and attempts to put him in a box of human understanding.

I'll say this hear but I might have to say it again in the future, if you or I, simple finite humans could understand the all-knowing, all-powerful, infinite creator of everything...he wouldn't be much of God. And if his thoughts were on the same level as you or me, would you trust him to be in that position?

WTF!!!!

Dude that was one the biggest hypocrisies ever!!!

micro evolution is still evolution. I mean really, if the creation was already perfect why would it need to adapt???
You just went against what you said. And god can't know everything about us because we are seperate from him. If he knew all that was going to happen then why did he even allow adam and eve into the garden in the first place. No i just can't agree with that, for someone who says we can't understand God you certainly seem to be doing a good job of it yourself.

Everything is flawed.

Did you ever think maybe he wanted to do things this way and have evolution happen???


Last edited by isbird100 on Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Seraph on Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:21 pm

Jason wrote:
Seraph wrote:
Jason wrote:If your God is perfect, he would have a better way to go about things than to make innocent people suffer for his own unknown purposes...

If his ways are unknown, than how do you know the ways aren't perfect? God knows the past, present, and future. He knows the thoughts and motives of everyone that has ever or will ever lived.

Now Jason unless you have the same knowledge as the creator of the universe I don't think it is within your ability, or right, to determine in what way God goes about doing things.

Lol, the Bible talks about the concept of the universe being created? Also, if his ways are unknown, which they are because they can never be proven, then how do we know it truly is perfect? How can we, beings made to be imperfect, possibly grasp such a concept as perfection?

I think you're only proving my point further. You admit that you don't understand God's ways, but you keep saying they are imperfect. How can you cast judgement on something without having full knowledge of it? Perhaps there is some part of it that you don't understand that makes it all worth it, but without seeing that part you don't understand it.

I can ask you Jason if you know everything, and I mean everything. Chances are the answer is "no". But lets go for a minuet here that you know 10% of everything, a pretty conservative estimate. In fact lets say you are the smartest person ever and know 50% of everything. Don't you think in that other 50% might be the reason for what God does?

This can relate to evolution, how many theories about how the earth started are there? How many of them started off with a scientist thinking he might now 1 little bit of his theory and expounded on the theory further. Take the Big Bang theory, for decades scientist were sure that was how the universe started. Now go out and try to find one that will back up that theory...good luck. Right now you're making a theory on something you can't fully grasp, but in the Guffman it's right.

By trying to confine God into something you fully understand you are breaking the 2nd Commandment, you are creating an image of God so you can better understand him. Linking back to other topics, that is a Sin.

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Post by isbird100 on Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:26 pm

Seraph wrote:
Jason wrote:
Seraph wrote:
Jason wrote:If your God is perfect, he would have a better way to go about things than to make innocent people suffer for his own unknown purposes...

If his ways are unknown, than how do you know the ways aren't perfect? God knows the past, present, and future. He knows the thoughts and motives of everyone that has ever or will ever lived.

Now Jason unless you have the same knowledge as the creator of the universe I don't think it is within your ability, or right, to determine in what way God goes about doing things.

Lol, the Bible talks about the concept of the universe being created? Also, if his ways are unknown, which they are because they can never be proven, then how do we know it truly is perfect? How can we, beings made to be imperfect, possibly grasp such a concept as perfection?

I think you're only proving my point further. You admit that you don't understand God's ways, but you keep saying they are imperfect. How can you cast judgement on something without having full knowledge of it? Perhaps there is some part of it that you don't understand that makes it all worth it, but without seeing that part you don't understand it.

I can ask you Jason if you know everything, and I mean everything. Chances are the answer is "no". But lets go for a minuet here that you know 10% of everything, a pretty conservative estimate. In fact lets say you are the smartest person ever and know 50% of everything. Don't you think in that other 50% might be the reason for what God does?

This can relate to evolution, how many theories about how the earth started are there? How many of them started off with a scientist thinking he might now 1 little bit of his theory and expounded on the theory further. Take the Big Bang theory, for decades scientist were sure that was how the universe started. Now go out and try to find one that will back up that theory...good luck. Right now you're making a theory on something you can't fully grasp, but in the Guffman it's right.

By trying to confine God into something you fully understand you are breaking the 2nd Commandment, you are creating an image of God so you can better understand him. Linking back to other topics, that is a Sin.

But you have done that, by even knowing of Gods existence you have created an image of god so you can better understand him. And this is coming from another christian...

The very act of knowing about him is sin then?
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Post by the guffman on Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:31 pm

http://www.big-bang-theory.com/

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aso/databank/entries/dp27bi.html

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/astronomy/bigbang.html

http://www.thekeyboard.org.uk/The%20Big%20Bang%20Theory.htm

"Georges LeMaitre (1894-1966) showed that religion and science -- or
at least physics -- did not have to be incompatible. LeMaitre, born in
Belgium, was a monsignor in the Catholic church.
He was fascinated by physics and studied Einstein's laws of gravitation,
published in 1915. He deduced that if Einstein's theory were true (and
there had been good evidence for it since 1919), it meant the universe
must be expanding. In 1927, the year he got his PhD from MIT, LeMaitre
proposed this theory, in which he stated that the expanding universe
was the same in all directions -- the same laws applied, and its
composition was the same -- but it was not static. He had no data to
prove this, so many scientists ignored it. (Another scientist, Soviet
Aleksandr Friedmann, had come to the same conclusion independently, a
few years earlier.) Even Einstein was reluctant to endorse this
extension of his theory of general relativity.
In 1929 at the Mt. Wilson Observatory in California, Edwin Hubble discovered that galaxies were moving away at high speeds.
He was, like most people, unaware of LeMaitre's 1927 theory. But
LeMaitre used Hubble's dramatic discovery as evidence for his theory.
It was easy. If you imagined the galaxies rushing away from us as a
movie, just run the movie backwards. After a certain time, all those
galaxies will rush together. LeMaitre put forth the idea that there was
once a primordial atom which had contained all the matter in the
universe.
The other support LeMaitre used was the idea of entropy, which
states that everything is moving towards greater and greater disorder.
Others took notice and named his theory "big bang." LeMaitre's ideas
opened more questions, many of which forced physics and astronomy
together: What was that primordial atom like? Why would it explode? He
pursued the topic for some time, even suggesting that there ought to be
some form of background radiation in the universe, left over from the
initial explosion of that primordial atom. He became more interested in
the philosophical ramifications of his theory, which were many.
Others took up the big bang theory, and for several years there were
strong debates between those supporting it and those who favored a
"steady state" theory of the universe, in which the universe was
eternal and unchanging. This argument ended when Arno Penzias and
Robert Wilson found evidence of cosmic background radiation, which LeMaitre and other theorists had determined would be the residue of the big bang's explosion many billions of years ago."
All within five minutes of searching, I've found several credible sources...


Last edited by Jason on Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Seraph on Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:31 pm

isbird100 wrote:

WTF!!!!

Dude that was one the biggest hypocrisies ever!!!

micro evolution is still evolution. I mean really, if the creation was already perfect why would it need to adapt???
You just went against what you said. And god can't know everything about us because we are seperate from him. If he knew all that was going to happen then why did he even allow adam and eve into the garden in the first place. No i just can't agree with that, for someone who says we can't understand God you certainly seem to be doing a good job of it yourself.

No micro evolution is the only evolution. You would rather believe that protein was accidentally created (an impossible feat in itself, a 1 in 102,000,000,000.34 chance of the protein forming in the correct sequence. Wrong that the protein dies) rather than God (whom you admit to being all powerful) doing it in one quick swoop.

As I have stated in other threads, God has given man a choice to worship him or not. If we didn't have a choice than you wouldn't have free will. God put Adam and Eve in the garden knowing they would sin, but he loved them enough to give them that choice and they took it.

Hunter, you throw around a lot of Biblical knowledge but you you're throwing it around wrong. So far you have said that God is not all powerful (can't create life correctly the first time), he isn't all knowing (he doesn't know what you or I are thinking), and he isn't ever present (same with the last). So based on this God is not sovereign in any way, he is simply a spirit we can't see. So why exactly do you refer to him as God if he isn't any of this? Obviously your God is not the same as my God, my God can do anything but fail. And yes that means create life on the first try (read the first chapter of Genesis, now once does it mention anything related to macro-evolution), he knows the thoughts of man (read Psalms 94:11) and he can do anything but fail (read the last sentence of Jeremiah 32:17)


Last edited by Seraph on Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:34 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Seraph on Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:34 pm

isbird100 wrote:

But you have done that, by even knowing of Gods existence you have created an image of god so you can better understand him. And this is coming from another christian...

The very act of knowing about him is sin then?

No, but Bible is very clear on what God can and can't do. You said that God can't see the thoughts of man, but Psalms says otherwise.

Confining God to your preconceived notions is a sin.

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Post by the guffman on Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:34 pm

Every single creation he has ever created has always been flawed with his design, this is a giant flaw...
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Post by Weeber33 on Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:35 pm

does he fail at failing?

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