Religion.

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Re: Religion.

Post by Seraph on Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:36 pm

Jason wrote:Every single creation he has ever created has always been flawed with his design, this is a giant flaw...

Again Jason, do you know everything? Do you know that these 'flaws' you keep referring to are actually flaws. If God uses these traits for a reason than they were meant to be there in the first place and thus not flaws at all.

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Re: Religion.

Post by Seraph on Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:37 pm

Weeber33 wrote:does he fail at failing?

No, he doesn't fail.

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Re: Religion.

Post by the guffman on Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:38 pm

So then every single flaw in this world is not a flaw, do I have that right?
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Re: Religion.

Post by Weeber33 on Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:39 pm

Seraph wrote:
Weeber33 wrote:does he fail at failing?

No, he doesn't fail.

So...

He does fail?

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Re: Religion.

Post by isbird100 on Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:39 pm

Seraph if you know about God, then you have confined him to a preconceived notion. I never said he wasn't all powerful, just that he doesn't use all of this power, he is also ever present. I beleive he knows everything about everything except our thoughts.

Just speculation, if God knows everything that will every happen, then we don't have free will because it will be predetermined. No, I think he understands everything and sees everything that may happen but there isn't just one future, otherwise god wouldn't be perfect because he would be bound to one future.
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Re: Religion.

Post by Seraph on Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:43 pm

isbird100 wrote:Seraph if you know about God, then you have confined him to a preconceived notion. I never said he wasn't all powerful, just that he doesn't use all of this power, he is also ever present. I beleive he knows everything about everything except our thoughts.

Did you read Psalms 94:11, or are you saying the Bible lies?

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Re: Religion.

Post by isbird100 on Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:45 pm

no i;m saying that our understanding is flawed and always will be until the day of judgement.
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Re: Religion.

Post by Seraph on Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:47 pm

Jason wrote:So then every single flaw in this world is not a flaw, do I have that right?

No. Now I'm not saying there aren't flaws, I'm saying God does not make mistakes. 'Flaws' are a result of Sin, God can still use these 'flaws' to his perfect will, but they were not created by him.

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Re: Religion.

Post by the guffman on Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:49 pm

isbird100 wrote:no i;m saying that our understanding is flawed and always will be until the day of judgement.

As the "imperfectly perfect" humans we are, Seraph, this what I meant, is that we can't grasp that concept of perfection. I won't try to explain that, but we can't. If all we can do is go along predetermined paths and apply "preconceived notions," then there really isn't a point to anything, is there?
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Re: Religion.

Post by Seraph on Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:50 pm

isbird100 wrote:no i;m saying that our understanding is flawed and always will be until the day of judgement.

That wasn't the question. I asked if you read Psalms 94:11, let me help you.

Psalm 94:11 (King James Version)



The LORD knoweth the thoughts of man, that they are vanity.
So for you to claim that God doesn't know the thoughts of man would mean either you are wrong or the Bible. Which is the inspired word of God, to say the Bible is wrong is to say God is wrong. So who is wrong?

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Re: Religion.

Post by the guffman on Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:51 pm

Seraph wrote:
Jason wrote:So then every single flaw in this world is not a flaw, do I have that right?

No. Now I'm not saying there aren't flaws, I'm saying God does not make mistakes. 'Flaws' are a result of Sin, God can still use these 'flaws' to his perfect will, but they were not created by him.

Everything was created by God, if Adam and Eve were created with sin by his design, then everything from sin has all spawned from that...
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Re: Religion.

Post by the guffman on Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:52 pm

Seraph wrote:Which is the inspired word of God, to say the Bible is wrong is to say God is wrong. So who is wrong?

If God needs inspiration, he isn't perfect.
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Re: Religion.

Post by Seraph on Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:54 pm

Jason wrote:
isbird100 wrote:no i;m saying that our understanding is flawed and always will be until the day of judgement.

As the "imperfectly perfect" humans we are, Seraph, this what I meant, is that we can't grasp that concept of perfection. I won't try to explain that, but we can't. If all we can do is go along predetermined paths and apply "preconceived notions," then there really isn't a point to anything, is there?

That's exactly my point, you don't know why God does things, so how can you say he did things wrong? To put this judgement on God is to say you can do a better job than Him.

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Re: Religion.

Post by the guffman on Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:56 pm

Seraph wrote:
Jason wrote:
isbird100 wrote:no i;m saying that our understanding is flawed and always will be until the day of judgement.

As the "imperfectly perfect" humans we are, Seraph, this what I meant, is that we can't grasp that concept of perfection. I won't try to explain that, but we can't. If all we can do is go along predetermined paths and apply "preconceived notions," then there really isn't a point to anything, is there?

That's exactly my point, you don't know why God does things, so how can you say he did things wrong? To put this judgement on God is to say you can do a better job than Him.

Never said I could, that's an illogical assumption... Because God is on this, "separate inunderstandable" level from us, we can't determine if s/he is perfect or imperfect at all, we can all guess and assume and believe based on what little information and logic we have
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Re: Religion.

Post by Seraph on Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:58 pm

Jason wrote:
Seraph wrote:
Jason wrote:So then every single flaw in this world is not a flaw, do I have that right?

No. Now I'm not saying there aren't flaws, I'm saying God does not make mistakes. 'Flaws' are a result of Sin, God can still use these 'flaws' to his perfect will, but they were not created by him.

Everything was created by God, if Adam and Eve were created with sin by his design, then everything from sin has all spawned from that...

God did not create Sin. Sin is like darkness, you can't measure dark you can only measure light. So darkness is the absence of light just like sin is the absence of God. It relates to our free-will, if he didn't create us with the ability to sin we would only be able to worship him and have no free-will.

Jason wrote:
Seraph wrote:Which is the inspired word of God, to say the Bible is wrong is to say God is wrong. So who is wrong?

If God needs inspiration, he isn't perfect.

No, you misunderstand. God was not inspired, but he inspired others to write his word.

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Re: Religion.

Post by Seraph on Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:00 pm

Jason wrote:
Seraph wrote:
Jason wrote:
isbird100 wrote:no i;m saying that our understanding is flawed and always will be until the day of judgement.

As the "imperfectly perfect" humans we are, Seraph, this what I meant, is that we can't grasp that concept of perfection. I won't try to explain that, but we can't. If all we can do is go along predetermined paths and apply "preconceived notions," then there really isn't a point to anything, is there?

That's exactly my point, you don't know why God does things, so how can you say he did things wrong? To put this judgement on God is to say you can do a better job than Him.

Never said I could, that's an illogical assumption... Because God is on this, "separate inunderstandable" level from us, we can't determine if s/he is perfect or imperfect at all, we can all guess and assume and believe based on what little information and logic we have

We actually have a lot of information on the nature of God, an entire book in fact.

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Re: Religion.

Post by the guffman on Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:01 pm

God is omni-present, there is no absence of God...

As for inspired word, why didn't God simply just write these himself, rather than use something imperfect and biased like humanity to do it?
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Re: Religion.

Post by the guffman on Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:01 pm

Seraph wrote:
Jason wrote:
Seraph wrote:
Jason wrote:
isbird100 wrote:no i;m saying that our understanding is flawed and always will be until the day of judgement.

As the "imperfectly perfect" humans we are, Seraph, this what I meant, is that we can't grasp that concept of perfection. I won't try to explain that, but we can't. If all we can do is go along predetermined paths and apply "preconceived notions," then there really isn't a point to anything, is there?

That's exactly my point, you don't know why God does things, so how can you say he did things wrong? To put this judgement on God is to say you can do a better job than Him.

Never said I could, that's an illogical assumption... Because God is on this, "separate inunderstandable" level from us, we can't determine if s/he is perfect or imperfect at all, we can all guess and assume and believe based on what little information and logic we have

We actually have a lot of information on the nature of God, an entire book in fact.

You think one book can let us conceive that?
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Re: Religion.

Post by Seraph on Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:05 pm

Jason wrote:God is omni-present, there is no absence of God...

As for inspired word, why didn't God simply just write these himself, rather than use something imperfect and biased like humanity to do it?

For the same reason your parents ask you to clean your room instead of doing it themselves, they know it will be better if you do. Doesn't the fact that God trusted men to write down his word make it more accessible? We have no chance of matching God's goodness, but these 40 men that wrote the Bible were sinners like you and me and yet God still saw them as capable of doing it. If God did everything himself than what's the point of creating man in the first place?

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Re: Religion.

Post by Seraph on Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:06 pm

Jason wrote:
Seraph wrote:
Jason wrote:
Seraph wrote:
Jason wrote:
isbird100 wrote:no i;m saying that our understanding is flawed and always will be until the day of judgement.

As the "imperfectly perfect" humans we are, Seraph, this what I meant, is that we can't grasp that concept of perfection. I won't try to explain that, but we can't. If all we can do is go along predetermined paths and apply "preconceived notions," then there really isn't a point to anything, is there?

That's exactly my point, you don't know why God does things, so how can you say he did things wrong? To put this judgement on God is to say you can do a better job than Him.

Never said I could, that's an illogical assumption... Because God is on this, "separate inunderstandable" level from us, we can't determine if s/he is perfect or imperfect at all, we can all guess and assume and believe based on what little information and logic we have

We actually have a lot of information on the nature of God, an entire book in fact.

You think one book can let us conceive that?

No, we can't understand everything about God, even if God put all that knowledge in the Bible we wouldn't be able to understand it. But it gives us the knowledge we are capable of understand.

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Re: Religion.

Post by the guffman on Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:34 pm

Seraph wrote:
Jason wrote:God is omni-present, there is no absence of God...

As for inspired word, why didn't God simply just write these himself, rather than use something imperfect and biased like humanity to do it?

For the same reason your parents ask you to clean your room instead of doing it themselves, they know it will be better if you do. Doesn't the fact that God trusted men to write down his word make it more accessible? We have no chance of matching God's goodness, but these 40 men that wrote the Bible were sinners like you and me and yet God still saw them as capable of doing it. If God did everything himself than what's the point of creating man in the first place?

Did you really just mean that sinful people can do something better (or for better results) than God? Shocked
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Re: Religion.

Post by Seraph on Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:45 pm

Jason wrote:
Seraph wrote:
Jason wrote:God is omni-present, there is no absence of God...

As for inspired word, why didn't God simply just write these himself, rather than use something imperfect and biased like humanity to do it?

For the same reason your parents ask you to clean your room instead of doing it themselves, they know it will be better if you do. Doesn't the fact that God trusted men to write down his word make it more accessible? We have no chance of matching God's goodness, but these 40 men that wrote the Bible were sinners like you and me and yet God still saw them as capable of doing it. If God did everything himself than what's the point of creating man in the first place?

Did you really just mean that sinful people can do something better (or for better results) than God? Shocked

I've read through my post a few times and I can't find that anywhere in there. I never said God couldn't do it, I never said God would do it wrong, I said God didn't do it himself.

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Re: Religion.

Post by Pickle on Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:51 pm

A perfect example of how God does somethings and we don't know the reasons! Just because we don't know everything about God, doesn't mean that he isn't perfect. And it is impossible for us to fully understand God. Its like us trying to teach a 4yr old Einstein's theory of relativity. His knowledge is far above ours. And the book He gave us (If you haven't guessed it already) is the Bible. Its simple enough that its message can be summed up in a few paragraphs, yet complex enough that you could study it for your entire life and never stop learning from it.

Also, God being omnipresent means that he is everywhere: by me, by you, on mars, under the ocean, etc. Another way to put it is that he can see everything that we do, no matter where we do it. When Seraph said that sin is the absence of God, he was right. When we sin, we break the spiritual connection between us and God. And just because we sin, it doesnt mean that he cant see us anymore, it just means that we cant "see" what God wants in our life; Its harder to know God's will.

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Re: Religion.

Post by isbird100 on Mon Aug 10, 2009 8:55 pm

The bible is sexist, it is, no matter what you say it is. It only uses the word man, it was written by people from another age. Where that was normalAnd how do we know that the people who decided what goes in the bible didn't listen to God and decided to put in what they decided would help them the most. There is a very real chance that you are completely and utterly wrong, just because some currupt( i know that is spelled wrong i just can't remember how to spell it) idiot decided to get rid of the true books.

THe bible is from another age and we should apply today's knowledge to it as it wasn't intended for this time.
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Re: Religion.

Post by Seraph on Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:18 pm

Hunter I'm going to tackle the topics your post mentioned, but a bit out of order. I might confuse myself so bare with me:

The first 17 verses of the Gospel of Matthew
are a logical unit, or section, which deals with a single principal
subject: the genealogy of Christ. It contains 72 Greek vocabulary words
in these initial 17 verses. (The verse divisions are man's allocations
for convenience, added in the 13th century.)
The number of words which are nouns is exactly 56, or 7 x 8.
The Greek word "the" occurs most frequently in the passage: exactly
56 times, or 7 x 8. Also, the number of different forms in which the
article "the" occurs is exactly 7.
There are two main sections in the passage: verse 1-11, and 12-17.
In the first main section, the number of Greek vocabulary words used is
49, or 7 x 7.
Why not 48, or 50?
Of these 49 words, the number of those beginning with a vowel is 28,
or 7 x 4. The number of words beginning with a consonant is 21, or 7 x
3.
The total numbers of letters in these 49 words is 266, or 7 x 38 -
exactly! The number of vowels among these 266 letters is 140, or 7 x
20. The number of consonants is 126, or 7 x 18 - exactly.
Of the 49 words, the number of words which occur more than once is
35, or 7 x 5. The number of words occurring only once is 14, or 7 x 2.
The number of words which occur in only one form is exactly 42, or 7 x
6. The number of words appearing in more than one form is also 7.
The number of the 49 Greek vocabulary words which are nouns is 42,
or 7 x 6. The number of words which are not nouns is 7. Of the nouns,
35 are proper names, or exactly 7 x 5. These 35 names are used 63
times, or 7 x 9. The number of male names is exactly 28, or 7 x 4.
These male names occur 56 times or 7 x 8. The number which are not male
names is 7.
Three women are mentioned - Tamar, Rahab, and Ruth. The number of Greek letters in these three names is 14, 7 x 2.
The number of compound nouns is 7. The number of Greek letters in these 7 nouns is 49, or 7 x 7.
Only one city is named in this passage, Babylon, which in Greek contains exactly 7 letters.
Now Hunter, you actually want me to believe that a MAN was so precise in his writing to come up with results like this? That is laughable.
As for being sexist, in a way it is. Eve ate the apple first, before this she was on completely equal footing with Adam in all ways. However after, God commanded she be obedient to Adam. Not a slave, mind you, but more like second-in-command. Never once does the Bible cast a woman character in a negative light unless she has done something to deserve it, and in fact the Bible commands men to consult with their wives on family issues.
The 'correct' books of the Bible being taken out and these 'fake' ones put in to put a vice grip of fear on mankind. The Council of Nicea had very little say about what actually went into the Bible as most of what was being used by the churches thoughout Europe and Asia had already established what they thought was the divine word of God. Had Constantinople told these people that their books were the correct ones they would have had riots on their hand. People may be stupid, but they aren't so stupid you can slip something like that in front of their eyes without someone noticing.

If you're going to use theories from a Dan B-rown book, can I use theories from a Star Wars movie, because in terms of their degree of reality they are kinda on equal footing.


Last edited by Seraph on Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:22 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : why cant I write the word to mean the color of mud?)

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Re: Religion.

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